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Fy5890

· 3h

国家数据局局长刘烈宏透露：2026年中国日均AI Token调用量已突破140万亿，较2024年初两年增长超千倍。Token作为大模型信息处理最小单元，可计量、可定价、可交易，一套新的AI价值体系正在形成，数据要素市场化进入价值释放阶段。

#AI经济 #数据要素 #Token

从日均1000亿到140万亿，中国AI Token调用量两年暴增超千倍。官方明确：围绕Token的调用、分发与结算，已成为人工智能产业变现的重要路径，“数据供给—价值释放”的良性循环初步形成。

#人工智能 #产业数字化 #科技趋势

中国发展高层论坛释放重要信号：Token不仅是AI计算单元，更成为新一代价值载体。千倍级增长背后，是AI规模化落地与数据要素市场化的双重提速，行业正式进入商业化兑现期。

#数字经济 #AI商业化 #科技财经

Moon

· 5d

创作者在社交平台上积累了庞大的受众群体，却对粉丝的真实身份一无所知。

@justinblau和@blauyourmind将探讨如何解决这一问题，以及加密技术能为创作者与粉丝的关系带来哪些可能性。

0:47 关于创作者变现的最大误区

2:31 为何创作者与粉丝的关系可以转移到链上

4:41 稳定币与全球互联网产品

6:55 贾斯汀与迈克尔的加密货币入行之路

10:09 创作者变现的替代模式

17:57 人工智能与内容过剩

18:57 为何人工内容筛选依然重要

19:36 #人工智能时代下的版权与知识产权

28:23 灵感来源：约翰·梅尔、泽德、布莱恩·切斯基、大卫·布莱恩

35:06 为何 #NFT 依然重要 #ai

https://x.com/a16zcrypto/status/2033918773829288000?s=20

中文 English

0:00 你得不到任何数据，任何创作者都没有CRM。

0:02 你不知道谁是你Spotify听众中的前1%。

0:05 你不知道谁是你YouTube视频的头部观看者。

0:07 你也无法与这些人直接沟通。

0:09 创作者平台，你可能每月付5美元

0:12 来获取他们的独家内容。

0:13 但用Bond，你实际上只需

0:16 一次性支付或质押5美元。

0:18 你可以随时提现，拿回你的5美元。

0:22 但只要你质押着，他们就能用你的5美元赚利息。

0:25 Bond是粉丝和创作者之间的一种中间状态，

0:29 两者直接连接，且无成本。

0:32 我们认为这种关系必须百分之千上万地上链，

0:34 因为如果像TikTok这样的平台倒了，你无法带走你的观众。

0:37 （空）

0:38 Justin，Michael，非常感谢你们来参加节目。

0:46 感谢邀请。

0:47 人们对于你们所解决的问题最大的误解是什么？

0:50 我觉得我们俩都有答案，你先说吧。

0:52 你让我先说？

0:54 你先说。

0:55 我的观点是，人们认为所有创意都应该被重视，创作者都应该得到报酬，

1:00 这点我绝对认同。

1:02 但这些创作者变现的前提

1:04 其实是必须先知道你的观众是谁。

1:08 Web2最大的问题是你没得任何数据。

1:11 没有任何创作者的CRM。

1:13 你不知道谁是你Spotify听众的前1%。

1:15 你不知道谁是你YouTube视频的主要观看者。

1:18 你无法直接和这些人沟通。

1:20 所以我的观点是，在考虑创作者变现之前，

1:23 先知道谁真正关心你作为创作者

1:25 是区块链带来的最大解锁之一。

1:29 而我认为，正如你所知，已经有很多创作者加密产品允许创作者在链上

1:33 通过各种方式赚钱。

1:35 它们通常都是通过交易量来运作，

1:37 比如说是一种模因币或内容币的交易，

1:41 或者NFT二级版税，都是这个模式。

1:42 创作者因交易量增加赚更多钱。

1:47 但我们认为，创作者应该随着他们观众的增长而赚更多钱，对吧？

1:50 你可以有一千个活跃交易员不断交易你的东西，

1:53 赚取可观的交易费用。

1:56 但这和你作为创作者创作的内容没有任何关联，

1:59 也和你的影响力或观众规模毫无关系。

2:02 交易更像是雇佣兵式的行为，

2:05 你是为了赚钱而做交易，

2:07 而我们谈的是一种完全不同的模式，你想培养忠实粉丝群。

2:10 那些想和你保持长期关系的人。

2:13 这两者似乎是相互矛盾的。

2:17 绝对是。

2:18 是的。

2:18 我们认为这种关系必须百分之千上万地上链，

2:21 因为如果像抖音这样的平台倒了，

2:24 你无法带走你的观众。

2:24 那为什么要上链？

2:26 为什么加密货币是解决这个问题的必需？

2:29 哦，你想让我先说吗？

2:31 好，我给两个答案。

2:33 第一，把我们关系中的经济关系上链更好，因为它开放透明，

2:37 一切都清楚可见。

2:40 尤其通常是通过钱包地址连接，

2:43 创作者有钱包地址，用户也有钱包地址，

2:45 理论上能直接沟通。

2:47 这只是基本前提。

2:49 更有趣的是我们的协议工作方式，必须用区块链。

2:54 理论上可以用中心化方式做，

2:58 但需要大量中介和成千上万行代码，

3:02 而我们的只有500行，

3:03 简单明了。

3:06 Touchy BT说我们几乎不可能做这个。

3:08 是啊。

3:09 我们的工具链，

3:10 建个MVP至少46个月，

3:12 而我们只用了两个月。

3:15 这说明了加密技术的互操作性和组合性，

3:18 能让你基于别人搭建的模块迅速推出产品。

3:22 百分百。

3:23 创作者们最大的问题是跨多个社交平台扩展时，

3:26 没有统一数据库

3:28 能告诉你谁在关心你发布的作品。

3:31 不仅是作为创作者，甚至是社交关系图的问题。

3:34 比如现在Instagram，我的一个童年好友生了双胞胎，

3:39 我都不知道，没出现在我的动态。

3:41 所以现在社交媒体算法之外，几乎不存在真正的关系。

3:44 我和其他项目正在探索这些替代方案。

3:48 我最近有了孩子，但没发过照片，

3:53 感觉像在一个怪异的中间地带，

3:55 很多人都不知道。

3:56 甚至没拍照片。

3:57 挺隐秘的。

3:58 感觉好像没发生过。

4:01 一棵树倒在森林里，

4:01 会有声音吗？

4:02 对。

4:03 哈哈，好。

4:04 明白。

4:04 很有道理。

4:05 说到用加密技术快速启动项目，

4:10 我觉得类似情况也出现在新银行和金融科技，

4:11 很多创业公司意识到用稳定币能立刻全球化，

4:14 而不用花大量精力适配各种本地市场和本地货币。

4:17 它们只需采用加密货币基础设施马上上线。

4:21 你也看到这里类似的好处。

4:23 可能也算是金融科技产品。

4:25 对，完全是。

4:26 这对创作者经济来说也是如此。

4:29 一旦有了稳定币，

4:31 你便能享受诸多便利，

4:33 比如保险库，

4:34 分成，

4:35 即时结算付款，

4:36 这些都是我们喜爱的魔法。

4:39 问题是怎么获得稳定币，

4:41 入门门槛还是很高，尤其是想吸引大众用户。

4:45 必须改进。

4:45 问题在哪里，怎么解决？

4:47 简单来说，

4:47 没人支持信用卡充值。

4:49 没错，这是简单版本。

4:50 大家习惯了Apple Pay和信用卡的便利，

4:55 你用信用卡转成稳定币后，会产生各种退单和欺诈问题，

4:59 很多。

5:00 所以我们最初提供了借记卡支持。

5:03 但有趣的是我自己都没把借记卡加到Apple Pay，

5:06 找不到它，

5:07 快过期了。

5:08 我问朋友们有多少人用借记卡，

5:10 大多数回答基本没人用，没人把借记卡放在Apple Pay上。

5:15 我觉得非投机性加密产品面向主流的最大门槛就是充值入口。

5:19 过去11年，

5:19 这是我见过监管环境和公司第一次准备好跨越这一步。

5:22 我听说年轻一代，特别是美国人，比千禧一代更喜欢用借记卡。

5:27 有趣。

5:28 我也问千禧一代朋友了。

5:31 我是千禧一代。

5:31 这对我没意义，我用信用卡，

5:33 我朋友不用借记卡。

5:34 嗯。

5:35 嗯，我其实是属于Z世代。

5:36 是的。

5:37 Justin，这对你来说是个非常私人问题，

5:40 因为你是艺术家。

5:42 你做音乐。

5:43 谈谈你的经历吧。

5:46 这是个漫长且精彩的故事，我大学学金融，

5:50 然后退学，成了早期美国舞曲的DJ，

5:54 大概2010年或2011年。

5:55 2014年我在一场演出中遇到Winklevoss兄弟，

5:59 他们当时正在打造交易所Gemini，

6:01 就是我认识比特币的契机。

6:03 他们还组了乐队。

6:04 是的，组乐队。

6:04 很不错。

6:05 我们在对金融和音乐的热情上产生共鸣。

6:09 但我真正开始参与生态，是从2017年以太坊上线开始，

6:12 我发现有许多应用对刚起步的音乐人很有用。

6:15 从那时起，我一直关注这个领域做各种尝试。

6:17 最大门槛一直是充值入口。

6:19 作为独立艺术家的经验吸引我加入区块链。

6:24 比如说Chance the Rapper和Russ，他们非常擅长讲述

6:28 作为独立艺术家的故事及多年没数据的问题。

6:32 你卖票，不知道买票的人是谁，

6:35 Ticketmaster掌握他们的邮件，

6:37 你追踪Instagram粉丝，算法变了，

6:39 怎样联络你的粉丝？

6:41 他们仍然关心音乐，只是被广告分散了注意力，

6:44 因为这就是Web2激励机制。

6:52 对我来说，加密是下一代创作者能保持独立

6:54 和

6:55 拿回大部分收入的方式。

6:58 大多数创作者有经理人、经纪人、律师，需要分成，

7:04 这笔支出很大。

7:06 和公司接受风险投资相比，创作者实际交出的佣金超过40%。

7:12 哇，40%。

7:14 没错。

7:15 我的理论是，如果你能对齐激励，直接连接粉丝，

7:20 他们会提供比你付给团队40%佣金更大的价值。

7:24 这个说法在音乐业很有争议，

7:26 因为有很多人靠这些角色谋生。

7:28 但音乐产业基本还是20年前的模式，版税结算非常糟糕。

7:32 欺诈大量存在。

7:34 就上周有消息说Calvin Harris的经理曾挪用他2200万美元地产资金。

7:38 这些音乐业的黑暗内幕都是真的。

7:41 区块链作为透明开放的基础层

7:43 对我来说，能解决我遇到的所有问题。

7:45 所以我致力于让它成功。

7:49 我认为2025年是监管环境成熟的第一年。

7:52 大家或许知道Patreon这种服务，支持创作者；

7:55 或者substack订阅内容创作者，他们会拿到部分收入。

7:58 很大一部分。

7:59 你们的做法和这些有什么区别？

8:03 比如Patreon、substack，或Instagram之类的创作者平台，

8:07 你可能每月付5美元，

8:08 持续付费获取独家内容。

8:11 而Bond只需一次质押5美元，

8:15 前提是，

8:16 质押后你可访问独家内容，

8:18 可能是一句合唱、独家歌，

8:19 博客之类的，

8:22 但你随时能提现5美元。

8:26 只要你质押，创作者就能赚利息。

8:28 他们靠利息赚钱。

8:29 我不是直接付你5美元，而是质押5美元。

8:32 当我质押着，你赚利息。

8:35 这就创造了新局面，不是说“我有1000个订阅者”，

8:38 而是“我有1000美元质押在我身上”，

8:40 这是全新的社交指标，创作者会喜欢并使用。

8:44 我们一开始主张价值超越粉丝数，

8:45 因为太多机器人，

8:46 Web2根本无法精准评估社交图谱。

8:49 正如Michael说，哪个粉丝质押5美元好，哪个可能质押5000或1万美元。

8:53 创作者可辨别谁是真正关心自己，

8:56 愿意为他们做更多。

8:57 Bond介于粉丝关注和订阅之间，

9:01 要求粉丝每月付5美元订阅是很高要求，

9:05 你还得持续产出新内容，

9:08 他们可能取消，你还要请求订阅，

9:10 让人感觉不真诚。

9:13 关注其实毫无价值，算法决定你看什么、怎么互动。

9:16 Bond是两者折中， fan和创作者直接联系，成本为零。

9:18 其美妙之处在于DeFi部分，

9:23 不把钱放账上，

9:24 而是分散质押给多个喜爱的创作者以获得访问权限，

9:27 这是Instagram或抖音环境做不到的。

9:29 称为零成本，因为你质押某金额，比如20美元支持音乐人，

9:33 获得幕后的内容访问，

9:36 想取回钱时随时提取。

9:38 没错，就是这样。

9:39 你基本上是在用金融科技里广为人知的商业模型。

9:44 星巴克移动应用其实是个银行，

9:47 用户存零钱，星巴克从利息中赚大钱。

9:51 你把这个“漏洞”转变为功能，

9:54 某种形式的“质押”或“绑定”，让人能透明选择支持艺术家。

9:59 没错，透明又开放。

10:00 创作者现在面临的问题是，

10:02 过去有Facebook，现今有诸多平台，

10:04 我该回谁的消息？

10:06 对关注音乐的人回复？

10:08 Web2没法筛选关心度。

10:10 有质押资金人在我身边，节目结束时更可能回复他们，

10:14 而不是那些Instagram或抖音上的无意义广告骚扰。

10:16 Bond不仅是新型网络关系机制，

10:19 也可称首个创作者CRM。

10:20 因为其他平台你根本拿不到数据。

10:22 Salesforce服务艺术家。

10:24 你可以这么理解，

10:25 既像Patreon又不像，

10:27 既像Salesforce又不像。

10:28 最大挑战是这行为用户和创作者都不习惯，

10:30 用户不习惯随时能取回质押的钱。

10:33 买东西退货要等一周，

10:34 购票退票得发售票平台花很多力气收回，

10:37 稳定币交易即时、免许可、全年无休，

10:41 我最喜欢的接触加密的故事是2017年，

10:45 周末用以太坊给爸爸展示几分钟内能转账到全球，

10:47 这种体验。

10:49 现在有稳定币和良好监管，我们有新工具创造全新创作者生态。

10:52 支持他们最大粉丝。

10:54 而且这机制不限于创作者，

10:56 比如有人医疗债务，可以直接质押支持，别人用利息还债。

11:01 这是全新模式，从创作者起步，

11:03 希望推广利息型线上连接到更多场景。

11:07 为什么是现在？

11:08 过去加密市场周期，人们期待帮创作者付费，

11:13 对NFT版税等很感兴趣，

11:15 结果没达到预期。

11:18 如今发生了什么变化，为什么世界准备好迎接新产品？

11:21 原因有几条。

11:23 技术方面，技术已经准备好，

11:27 比如Layer 2交易费低至千分之一美分。

11:31 有稳定币，

11:33 SDK和钱包基础设施做到无感知提供钱包，

11:36 用户只用邮箱注册，

11:38 且我们可以资助交易费（Gas费）。

11:40 比如在Bond网站用时，用户不会感觉有以太坊交易，

11:43 一切后台完成。

11:45 很多公司努力打造如此无缝体验的基础设施。

11:48 所以描述我们产品时，甚至不用提加密。

11:51 这是非必须。

11:54 若要主流用户加入，体验必须无缝。

11:57 另一方面，Patreon、Substack等订阅平台已存在，

12:01 Instagram和Twitter开始融入订阅，

12:04 但大家已经产生订阅疲劳。

12:08 我喜欢支持的一百多位创作者，我不会一个月给他们每人5美元，

12:12 很多大V有几十万粉丝，实际付费却仅千人，

12:15 用户与付费支持者差距极大。

12:18 什么机制更好，既便宜、方便，且心理负担小？

12:22 大家逐渐接受订阅这理念，我们认为这是更好方式。

12:26 你提到订阅，

12:27 我想反驳一下。

12:29 现在AI让内容生成极易，有人说内容成本跌至零。

12:33 那创作者经济怎么办？

12:35 这带来我最具争议的观点。

12:38 好。

12:39 讲个故事再说答案。

12:42 看现场John Mayer弹吉他是我当DJ以来的最佳体验之一。

12:45 我能弹吉他，但不怎么样。

12:47 看他弹是无与伦比的体验，我有幸和他一起呆过几次。

12:52 每次都给我巨大价值，

12:54 他除了票钱外几乎没其他报酬，

12:55 但他给予的价值远超票价，

12:57 甚至周边商品。

12:58 我在Woodstock旧址Beth Elle Woods看过他演出，

13:01 他和Grateful Dead合作，

13:02 精彩极了。

13:04 哇。

13:04 他是个极棒的表演者。

13:06 几周前和他谈Bond，他很快就理解了。

13:09 对AI内容，我争议性的观点是，人们会欣赏人类对内容的策划。

13:14 因为纯AI内容和提示生成的东西看起来很像，但最终分别会显现，

13:18 而创造力中最大变量不是创造行为本身，而是策划。

13:23 一直如此。

13:24 我创作歌曲时，会策划各种声音，

13:27 打造最终作品。

13:29 那是我的技术。

13:31 听众觉得最有人味的是这里。

13:33 所以我认为人们会肯定人类的输入。

13:37 只是执行创意的阻力已经降到零，

13:41 ，

13:41 带来我观点：知识产权与创意相关将彻底消失。

13:44 我不认为任何法律或判例会有效执行。

13:46 看版权历史不算长，尤其音乐相关。

13:49 主录音权直到70年代才出现，

13:52 之前没人拥有录音，除了唱片公司。

13:54 无版权法律，

13:56 唱片公司拥有100%权利。

13:58 直到70年代，音乐人才能从录音中获得部分收入。

14:02 唱片公司控制实体发行。

14:06 版权这个概念逐渐被AI带来的海量高质量内容所淘汰。

14:07 我认为版权严重阻碍这领域的创新。

14:10 反对者问，

14:11 创意最初提出者如何获得报酬？

14:13 我说，

14:15 过去人力资源是无限的。

14:17 200年前有人想法，根本没法记录，

14:22 如果他们影响了创造了首个版权概念的人，这些都没得补偿。

14:26 巴赫是最早享有某种音乐版权的作曲家。

14:29 他的价值通过作品来源和声誉流传。

14:32 我观点是需要为创意创新创造新价值体系。

14:36 版权在充斥AI内容的世界里不再适用。

14:41 这对依赖IP生存的许多创作者来说或许很可怕。

14:44 问题是，没了版权他们靠什么生活？

14:46 他们拥有的，是与欣赏他们作品人的人类关系。

14:49 必须有全新价值体系，

14:51 否则我认为创作将灭亡。

14:54 而旧势力拼命保护版权和大品牌IP，

14:57 这很自负，

14:59 认为自己能拥有最初的创意。

15:02 生物科技例外，研究和专利阻力大，没专利没人创新。

15:06 创意领域AI带来零阻力，

15:09 版权成了创新路上的巨大障碍。

15:13 这让我想起托马斯·杰斐逊关于设计专利制度时说，

15:17 “我把火点到你灯上，你可以用我的火不会少我的火。”

15:21 他用此比喻思想传播，

15:25 别人可以利用你的思想而不损害你。

15:27 看来我们需要更新长期持有的制度。

15:32 这让我想起狄更斯在美国巡演，因版权被侵害而感到震惊。

15:36 他觉得美国人简直野蛮。

15:39 也许这是未来。

15:41 谁知道呢？

15:42 五年内我们会知道。

15:44 我的另一个争议观点是，我在行业里多年，

15:50 见过许多情况。

15:51 我曾在A16Z和C6（注：机构简称）工作，

15:57 现在作为开发者开始构建产品，

16:00 我认为并非所有加密产品都必须是去中心化协议带代币，

16:06 而“去中心化”一词太大，一切都混为一谈。

16:09 但我们看到技术如此优秀，你可以构建出优秀应用和商业模型，

16:14 不必去中心化，

16:16 这也没问题。

16:18 利用加密技术打造新产品和消费体验，

16:21 我们看到这种趋势。

16:24 我不知是否可说名字，但现在有不少成功的加密公司，

16:28 不必是去中心化协议，

16:30 却巧妙利用技术创造全新品类。

16:34 这令人兴奋。

16:38 我希望，

16:39 想造新产品的开发者能这样想，

16:41 而非只想“我要造加密产品。”

16:43 他们应该想“我要造个了不起的东西”，加密只是工具，是技术栈一层。

16:47 我们见证了稳定币的趋势，

16:51 终会变成谈论美元而非稳定币，

16:54 人们会直接谈价值，

16:54 可靠体现价值的工具，

16:56 我想到最近的思考是加密和AI的区别，

17:00 感觉像是笑话开场。

17:02 不是，我认真说。

17:03 用户感受到AI，体验里见得着。

17:06 无论是生成艺术还是对话机器人。

17:09 但加密往往完全隐形，

17:12 这很酷。

17:14 前端后端的区别。

17:16 说说Justin和他的音乐事业，

17:18 Michael，你是魔术师，

17:19 魔术如何影响你看待创作者经济？

17:22 很多方面。

17:23 魔术和知识产权历史疯狂，

17:26 魔术无法版权保护。

17:29 你能写下来版权保护手稿，

17:31 但魔术表演不受版权保护。

17:33 魔术史上充满相互抄袭、重组点子。

17:37 我导师Aussie Wind极其厉害，

17:39 你没看过？

17:40 他超棒，

17:41 曾问过我，买套20美元的牌组，所有人能玩同样魔术，

17:44 好魔术师和差魔术师区别是什么？

17:46 答案是人。

17:49 他表演魔术，那体验要好千倍。

17:52 所以魔术世界的现状也就是Justin所说的。

17:55 所有艺术终将失去知识产权防护，

17:58 靠人性和独特性打动人。

18:01 Arthur C. Clarke有句名言，

18:03 任何足够先进的技术

18:04 都难以与魔术区分。

18:05 真是经典。

18:06 魔术师总领先大众两三步。

18:09 我不能透露原因，

18:10 魔术里面的技术早10年前高中我就玩过，

18:14 现在成了大家口袋里的消费品。

18:16 真的？

18:16 不能用来做魔术了。

18:17 完全是。

18:18 能举例吗？

18:19 听起来疯狂。

18:20 新款Meta眼镜。

18:22 对。

18:22 你手上有。

18:22 用手画字打字。

18:23 魔术师早玩这一概念，

18:25 不是这一技术本体，

18:26 概念十年前就有。

18:28 很有趣。

18:30 你们启发来源？

18:32 谁激励你们？

18:33 我提过John Mayer，

18:36 还有朋友Zed，技术前沿DJ，创大热单。

18:38 技术方面，我推Brian Chesky，

18:40 真好的人，

18:42 在重重挑战中把Airbnb做成革命性公司，

18:45 改变了我们对世界运作的看法，

18:48 我希望我们能从加密角度做到。

18:50 回到魔术。

18:51 我推荐三位现役魔术师，必看。

18:54 Aussie Wind,

18:56 Doug McKenzie,

18:57 David Blaine。

18:59 理由各不同。

19:01 Doug是技术最前沿魔术师。

19:04 David Blaine极具感染力，为难自己极限。

19:07 看他表演，你就想我也能。

19:09 他尝试屏住呼吸9分钟，太厉害。

19:12 准备好来个快速问答？

19:13 走吧。

19:14 作为创始人得到的最糟糕建议？

19:15 简单答案，找聪明人就行。

19:17 尤其区块链或相关行业，

19:20 必须用产品，才能有正确文化视角。

19:22 光请工程师、期望教他们加密文化根本行不通。

19:24 这是最糟建议。

19:26 我本来要说的。

19:27 那个偷了我的。

19:27 不用说名字。

19:29 提升效率的诀窍？

19:31 语音笔记。

19:32 录语音，AI做摘要。

19:33 我用Zoom会议做笔记。

19:36 不常看，但想法记下来，

19:38 不是原稿，而是AI提炼后存在笔记里。

19:41 非常有帮助。

19:44 我经常想很多事，能归纳很有价值。

19:47 用语音和AI的结合很好。

19:50 我常用AI配音读博客。

19:52 有个Chrome插件Speechify连我邮件，

19:54 看邮件时自动读。

19:57 另一个插件截取重点，存入笔记工具Obsidian，

20:00 很多人用，日常必备。

20:03 我用苹果笔记。

20:05 不，Obsidian是史上最强笔记工具。

20:06 我试过用，后来还是回苹果笔记了。

20:08 习惯决定一切。

20:09 我一直让人推荐书，也欢迎推荐歌或其他艺术品。

20:11 近读的最值得停下来记笔记的是《君主论》。

20:14 还有一本

20:15 关于技术和加密，理解比特币、

20:18 稳定币、美元、联储、印钞那些东西，

20:21 是Lyn Alden的《Broken Money》。

20:23 不错书。

20:24 一本经济学一本政治学。

20:27 Machiavellians我也读了，

20:28 是A16Z内部喜爱书，Mark Andreessen常提。

20:29 我也从他那听说的。

20:30 政治洞察很多。

20:32 强烈推荐。

20:33 我生日时弟弟送的《被讨厌的勇气》。

20:35 非常棒，

20:37 我网络上被众人讨厌那段时间读它，

20:39 改变了很多看法。

20:41 它在当下非常适合想获得最大关注度的人。

20:44 买藏着，心情不好时读。

20:46 否则没太大作用。

20:47 如果心情好，飞得高，

20:49 不太能激起共鸣。

20:50 对。

20:51 音乐方面，听专辑是失传艺术，

20:53 长时间专注完整讲述艺术家故事，

20:55 我强烈推荐听专辑。

20:58 最后推荐最新Rufus Du Sol专辑，

21:00 他们的最好专辑之一。

21:02 之前也很棒，

21:04 我真的很喜欢。

21:06 几首音效突破。

21:07 必听两遍。

21:08 精彩。

21:09 顺便说一下，我们播客用的是Justin你的歌，

21:12 谢谢你的支持。

21:14 曲名叫“Shine That You Created”，

21:16 未公开曲，现在被妥善保管。

21:18 听A16Z Crypto的媒体都能听到。

21:21 喜欢。

21:22 感谢。

21:23 一言以蔽之，

21:24 最后的问题，最小的坚持点是什么？

21:25 我来一个。

21:27 室内家具禁止放户外衣服。

21:28 非常棒。

21:29 你和老婆肯定合得来。

21:31 我也觉得。

21:32 科技上我还坚持，

21:34 NFT尤其是ERC721或1155，

21:37 是表示网络数字资产最酷技术创新。

21:40 它们会无处不在。

21:41 不管媒体说什么，头条怎样，

21:43 它们没死。

21:45 误解是什么？

21:47 都是投机层面猜测。

21:50 有人以为它像互联网一样是昙花一现，

21:53 没人用，

21:54 但互联网成为了信息高速公路。

21:57 NFT也会照此发展，

21:58 数字所有权很重要。

22:00 Instagram认证徽章一度意义重大，

22:02 代表信号和数字身份，

22:05 NFT依然有这样的作用。

22:07 只是遭一些项目滥用流行叙事，

22:09 赚钱快捷。

22:10 但数字所有权才是重点，

22:13 尤其结合刚才AI让阻力归零讨论，

22:17 谁是原创、沿革、公开账本，

22:20 必然趋势，

22:22 身份或艺术层面，

22:23 随处可见。

22:24 只是时间问题。

22:26 Eddie Lazar在A16Z说过，

22:28 我很喜欢。

22:29 他是CTO，很棒。

22:31 忘了主题是什么，

22:32 大概是NFT和所有权，

22:34 他说真所有权副作用是转手方便，

22:38 容易转让你会看到很多人转来转去，

22:41 买卖其实是副作用，

22:43 核心是拥有权。

22:44 我喜欢这种视角，

22:45 真所有权，

22:46 我们都支持。

22:47 Michael，Justin，非常感谢你们来聊。

22:49 非常感谢。

22:51 很开心。

22:52 谢谢。

22:53 Q shine。

22:54 是的。

23:08 [MUSIC PLAYING]

0:00 You don't get any data, there's no CRM for any creative.

0:02 You don't know who the top 1% of your Spotify listeners are.

0:05 You don't know who the top watchers of your YouTube videos are.

0:07 And you can't directly communicate with those people.

0:09 Creator platforms, you might pay somebody like $5 a month

0:12 to get access to their exclusive content.

0:13 But with Bond, what you're doing is you're actually only paying

0:16 or bonding $5 one time.

0:18 You can withdraw and get your $5 back at any moment in time.

0:22 But while you're bonded to them, they earn interest on your $5.

0:25 Bond is some middle ground where the fan and the creator

0:29 have that direct connection and it costs $0.

0:32 We think that relationship should 1,000% be on chain

0:34 because you can't take your audience with you if a platform like TikTok goes

0:37 down.

0:38 Justin, Michael, thank you guys both so much for coming on the show.

0:46 Thanks for having us.

0:47 What is the biggest misconception that people have

0:50 about the problem that you're solving?

0:52 I think we both have an answer, so you can go first.

0:54 You want me to go first?

0:55 You can go first.

0:56 My spicy take is that people assume all creativity

1:00 should be valued and that creators should be paid,

1:02 which I definitely believe to be true.

1:04 But the prerequisite to any of these themes of creator monetization

1:08 is actually knowing who your audience is.

1:11 Biggest problem in web 2, you don't get any data.

1:13 There's no CRM for any creative.

1:15 You don't know who the top 1% of your Spotify listeners are.

1:18 You don't know who the top watchers of your YouTube videos are.

1:20 And you can't directly communicate with those people.

1:23 And so I guess my take is before you start thinking about creator monetization,

1:28 just knowing who cares about you as a creator

1:30 is one of the biggest unlocks that blockchain provides.

1:33 And what I would say is there have been numerous,

1:37 as you know, creator crypto products that let creators earn on chain

1:41 on the internet in various ways.

1:42 And the way that usually works is through some form of like trading volume.

1:47 So whether that's, you know, a meme coin or a content coin trading

1:50 or an NFT secondary royalty, it's the same idea.

1:53 And what that means is that creators earn more money as trading volume grows.

1:58 But what we believe is that creators should earn more money as their audience

2:01 grows, right?

2:02 You could have a thousand very active traders trading your stuff

2:05 and make some good trading fees off of that.

2:07 But that has no tie at all to your content that you're creating as a creator

2:10 or how big you are getting in the world and how many people are seeing your

2:13 stuff.

2:13 Yeah, because trading is more of like a mercenary behavior.

2:16 You know, you're trying to make money off of something

2:18 versus this complete other type of thing where you want to develop

2:21 like a loyal fan base and a loyal following.

2:24 People who want to have this like long-term relationship with you.

2:26 Those two things would seem to be, you know, opposed.

2:30 A hundred percent.

2:30 Yes.

2:31 And we think that relationship should 1000% be on chain

2:34 because you can't take your audience with you if a platform like TikTok goes

2:37 down.

2:38 So why on chain?

2:39 Why is crypto necessary to solve this problem?

2:42 Oh man, do you want to take that to start?

2:45 Sure. I think I'll give two answers to that.

2:47 Yeah. I think the first is, you know, putting whatever this relationship is,

2:51 economic relationship in our case on chain is just that better because it's

2:55 open,

2:56 it's transparent, everything can be seen.

2:58 And especially with the fact that like typically it's through wallet addresses

3:02 so the creator might have a wallet address and the user will have a wallet

3:05 address.

3:06 Now in theory, they have a direct way to communicate with each other.

3:08 Okay. So that's like sort of like the table stakes reason.

3:11 But I think the more interesting reason is the way that our protocol works,

3:15 you need a blockchain to do it, right?

3:17 And so we could in theory maybe build it on centralized rails,

3:21 but that would require many intermediaries and lots and lots and lots and

3:26 thousands and thousands

3:26 of lines of code, whereas ours is 500 lines of code and simple.

3:31 Touchy BT said it's almost impossible for us to build what we've built.

3:33 Yeah. And obviously our rails.

3:35 I just do them.

3:36 It takes six to nine months to create an MVP.

3:39 Whereas we were able to do it in like two, you know, so.

3:41 So this speaks to the ability in crypto to have interoperability,

3:45 composability to sort of build off of the Lego blocks that other people have

3:48 already created

3:49 and instantly just sort of like be able to ship a product.

3:51 100%.

3:52 Which is the biggest problem that creatives have had

3:54 as they've like expanded across all these different social platforms is there's

3:57 no unified

3:58 database of who cares about the creativity that you've put out in the world.

4:01 But that's not even just as a creator, but even a social graph, right?

4:04 Where like nowadays on Instagram, you know, my friend, one of my best childhood

4:08 friends had twins.

4:09 I didn't even know because it didn't show up in my feed, right?

4:12 And so there's no real relationship that exists

4:15 beyond the algorithm in social media these days.

4:17 And, you know, the stuff that we're building and many other projects

4:20 are beginning to sort of explore what the alternatives look like.

4:23 I recently had a kid and I've not posted about it.

4:25 And I mean, this weird limbo area where I feel like a lot of people don't know

4:29 that I.

4:29 I didn't even get a photo.

4:30 You didn't even get a photo.

4:31 You know, it's kind of covert, you know?

4:33 It feels like it hasn't really happened.

4:36 We have a tree falls in the forest.

4:38 Does it make a sense?

4:39 Exactly.

4:39 Yeah, I like that.

4:40 That's good.

4:41 I get that.

4:42 That totally makes sense.

4:43 To your point about being able to sort of like bootstrap this thing on crypto

4:47 rails,

4:47 I think we're seeing something analogous in, you know, the neo-bank kind of f

4:51 intech area

4:53 where a lot of these startups are realizing that they can instantly go global

4:57 if they use stablecoins rather than having to like develop all these local

5:01 integrations

5:02 with different places and, you know, conform to various local markets.

5:06 They're able to sort of get up and running just by adopting crypto rails.

5:11 And so you're kind of seeing a similar benefit.

5:13 It seems like not in like the fintech area.

5:15 I mean, I guess it is a fintech product.

5:16 And what I'd say to the creator economy.

5:18 100% and what I'd say to is once you get the stablecoin,

5:22 you get access to like all these great things, right?

5:24 You get the vault.

5:25 You get the splits.

5:26 You get the payments, instant settlement, all the magic that we love.

5:28 The problem though is still actually getting the stablecoins, right?

5:31 So the on ramp is still a challenge, especially if we're looking to onboard the

5:34 mainstream.

5:35 That's going to have to improve.

5:36 What's the issue there and how do we overcome it?

5:38 The simple.

5:39 No one supports credit cards.

5:40 Well, yeah, that's the simple version.

5:41 I think people are so used to the convenience of Apple Pay and credit cards.

5:46 And, you know, you have all these different chargeback fraudulent issues that

5:51 arise when

5:51 you convert a credit card fee to a stablecoin.

5:54 And so we initially enabled debit cards for a lot of things.

5:57 And what's funny is I myself didn't even have my debit card and my Apple Pay.

6:01 And I couldn't even find it.

6:02 And it was expiring.

6:03 I started asking friends, I'm like,

6:04 how many of you guys actually use debit cards?

6:06 And the response mostly came back as like none, like zero out of 10 data points

6:12 to people

6:12 actually keep their debit cards on Apple Pay.

6:14 And so I do think the biggest barrier to entry for mainstream engagement in non

6:18 -speculative

6:19 crypto products is just that on ramp.

6:21 And I think that in the 11 years I've been doing crypto things, this is the

6:25 first time

6:26 the regulatory environment and the companies are sort of ready to take that to

6:28 the next level.

6:29 I've read about a trend of like younger generations, as particularly in the US,

6:34 liking debit cards and actually using them more than like millennials and so...

6:39 Oh, interesting.

6:40 I'm asking my millennial friends the question.

6:42 So, you know...

6:42 Yeah, I'm a millennial.

6:43 So this makes no sense to me.

6:44 I use credit cards.

6:46 My friends are not debit cards.

6:47 Okay.

6:48 Yeah, I mean, you know...

6:49 Also, I'm trying to fish around the points.

6:50 I think I'm technically Gen Z.

6:52 All right, I made that right.

6:52 Yeah, okay.

6:53 I don't even know.

6:54 Justin, this is a problem that is deeply personal to you,

6:58 because you are an artist.

7:00 You make music.

7:01 Tell me about your journey.

7:03 It's such a long and fantastic story, but I studied finance in college,

7:07 dropped out and became a DJ in the early days of dance music being a thing in

7:11 America.

7:11 So this is 2010, 2011.

7:13 And I actually met the Winklevoss twins while I was playing one of my shows in

7:17 2014,

7:18 while they were building their exchange called Gemini.

7:20 And that's how I discovered Bitcoin.

7:21 They've got a band, too.

7:22 Oh, yes, they do.

7:23 And they're quite good.

7:24 They've always been into music.

7:25 And so we sort of connected on the passionate about finance level, on the music

7:30 level.

7:30 And that's how I discovered Bitcoin.

7:32 But it didn't really start getting engaged in the ecosystem until, like,

7:35 Ethereum 2017, when I started realizing, "Oh, wow, there are all these

7:39 applications

7:39 that I wish I could have had as a musician when I was starting my career."

7:43 And I've kind of been focused on that since 2017 in lots of different realms

7:47 and lots of different experiments.

7:48 The biggest barrier to entry has been that on-ramp.

7:49 For me, though, my attraction to blockchain technology in general is my

7:56 experience as an

7:56 independent artist.

7:57 And I'm sure you've heard of a couple of these, but to give you an example,

8:00 there's Chance the Rapper, and there's another rapper named Russ who's really,

8:05 really amazing at telling his story about being an independent artist and how

8:09 challenging that is,

8:10 how it's been over the past 10 years, and how you just get no data.

8:13 And you don't know anything about, you sell tickets, you don't know who those

8:17 people are.

8:17 You don't get their emails, ticker master controls your emails.

8:20 You grow up following on Instagram, they change the algorithm.

8:23 How do you reach that fan base?

8:25 Those fans definitely still care about that music.

8:28 They're just seeing a bunch of slop that re-hypoticates their attention to more

8:33 advertising

8:33 revenue, because that's sort of what Web2 is incentivized around.

8:36 And so for me, crypto has been a force that I feel the next generation of creat

8:44 ives

8:44 across the board, not just musicians, can use to really maintain that

8:48 independence

8:49 and maintain their biggest share of the pie when it comes to their revenue.

8:52 As you know, most creators have managers, agents, lawyers, all of whom take

8:56 fees along the way.

8:57 And if you were to compare that to the structure of a company and a VC

9:01 investing in that company,

9:02 a lot of creatives actually end up giving over 40% of their income just in

9:07 commissions.

9:08 Wow, 40%.

9:09 Exactly.

9:10 And so the theory that I've always played with is in my head in crypto, like

9:13 the core theory is,

9:15 if you can align incentives and connect directly with a fan base,

9:19 they'd provide more value than the 40% commission you're paying your team.

9:23 And it's a relatively controversial taking the music business because, you know

9:26 ,

9:26 there are lots of people that don't make music that have jobs based on these

9:30 types of roles.

9:31 And yet, the industry still lives in a world from like 20 years ago where

9:35 royalty accounting is

9:36 absolutely garbage.

9:37 There's tons of fraud.

9:38 I mean, the story just came out the other week that Calvin Harris is business

9:41 manager.

9:42 I ended up firing a while ago in Bezelton, out of like 22 million in a real

9:46 estate deal.

9:46 You know, and so these sort of like conventional slimy takes that you hear

9:50 about the music industry

9:51 are all true.

9:52 And blockchain as a transparent layer, as an open layer just was so obvious to

9:57 me back then,

9:58 could help solve all the problems that I was experiencing.

10:01 And so I've sort of dedicated my life to, you know, making it work.

10:04 And I think, you know, 2025 is the first year we have the regulatory

10:07 environment to push it.

10:08 I think people might be familiar with a service like Patreon where you can

10:12 support creators or

10:14 sub stack. You subscribe to various content creators and they get a portion of

10:17 the revenue,

10:18 a large portion.

10:19 What separates what you're doing from those existing options?

10:23 Like on Patreon or sub stack or even Instagram or any of these other creator

10:26 platforms,

10:27 you might pay somebody like $5 a month, right?

10:29 So every month you're paying the $5 to get access to their exclusive content.

10:33 But with Bond, what you're doing is you're actually only paying or bonding $5

10:38 one time

10:39 with the catch that once you bond your money, you get access to their exclusive

10:44 content,

10:44 whatever that might be.

10:45 Maybe, you know, it's a chorus, an exclusive, you know, song, a blog, etc.

10:50 But the catch is that you can withdraw and get your $5 back at any moment in

10:54 time.

10:55 But while you're bonded to them, they earn interest on your $5.

10:59 And so that's how they earn money.

11:01 And so instead of me paying you $5 directly, I am bonding $5 to you one time.

11:06 And as long as I'm bonded to you, you're earning interest.

11:09 And what this creates is this really cool new dynamic where now, instead of

11:12 being able to say,

11:13 you know, I have a thousand subscribers, you can say I have $1,000 bonded to me

11:18 , right?

11:19 Which is a very new social metric type of signal that I think creators are

11:22 going to

11:23 really like and use.

11:24 We started with your worth more than your follower count because there's so

11:27 many bots.

11:28 There's no way to really value your social graph as it applies in Web2.

11:32 And as Michael said, you know, if you get a thousand fans to stake or to bond $

11:37 5, that's cool.

11:38 You also have fans that are bigger that might want to get recognized by you as

11:42 a creator.

11:42 And they might be willing to stake a little bit more money and bond $5,000, $10

11:46 ,000.

11:46 And now all of a sudden you as the creator can tell, okay, who really cares

11:52 about me?

11:52 Maybe I'll do a lot more for you.

11:54 And what bond is, is it's somewhere between a follower and a subscription where

11:58 , as a creator,

11:58 it's a lot to ask your fans to pay $5 a month for a subscription.

12:02 And, you know, you're then obligated to give them new content.

12:06 They might stop the subscription and you're like asking them for something that

12:09 feels like

12:10 sort of disingenuous when you ask someone to subscribe.

12:13 A follow is, you know, really worthless in the sense that, you know,

12:17 the algorithm then decides what you see and how you interact.

12:20 Bond is some middle ground where both the user, the fan, and the creator

12:24 have that direct connection and it costs $0.

12:27 The beauty of the mechanic is in the DeFi component where now, instead of

12:33 keeping your money

12:33 in a checking account, you might spread that money between a lot of creators

12:36 that you like

12:37 just to get access to them.

12:38 Something that you just couldn't do in an Instagram or a TikTok environment.

12:42 And you say cost $0 because you can bond some amount of money.

12:46 Like say I bond $20 to you as a musician. I like your music.

12:49 I want to get access to all the behind the scenes sort of material.

12:52 And then I can pull my money out pretty much whenever and have that back.

12:56 Exactly.

12:56 Yeah, exactly.

12:57 You're basically taking like a business model that it's well understood in

13:00 Fintech and finance.

13:02 There's this like shadow economy of, you know, the Starbucks mobile app is kind

13:06 of like a bank.

13:07 And everybody's accounts that they just leave their pennies in there.

13:11 You know, on an aggregate scale, Starbucks makes a lot of money off of that in

13:15 interest.

13:15 You're taking this sort of like business model that's pre-existing and is

13:18 almost like a bug

13:19 for user experiences elsewhere and turning it into a feature.

13:22 I'm actually going to choose to stake some of this money or bond it.

13:28 And it's going to be transparent and open that I know that the artist is going

13:31 to get rewarded.

13:32 Yeah, exactly.

13:32 And what I'm, you know, a problem that creators have is now with all the

13:35 different platforms,

13:36 right? It started out with just Facebook.

13:37 Now it's everything, you know, even before that Myspace.

13:39 Who do I even know to respond to, right?

13:42 Like, I owe the people that care about my musical response if they have a

13:46 question,

13:46 if they have a story.

13:47 There's just no way for me to filter how much someone cares in Web2.

13:52 With bond, if somebody has money staked on me, at the end of the night when I

13:56 go to sleep after a show,

13:57 more likely to respond to those people than the random spam that I get with

14:01 random ads on Instagram

14:02 or on TikTok or wherever it might be.

14:04 And so we think about bond, not just as a new mechanic for online relationships

14:10 .

14:10 We also think of it as the first creator CRM because there's literally no data

14:16 you have access to

14:17 when you build an audience on any other platform.

14:19 Salesforce for artists.

14:21 I mean, there's all these analogies, right?

14:22 It's like Patreon, but it's not.

14:24 It's Salesforce and it's not.

14:24 And I think that's our biggest challenge in starting this new idea is this is a

14:28 behavior

14:28 that users aren't used to and creatives aren't used to, right?

14:31 A user is not used to being able to get their money back instantaneously at any

14:34 time.

14:35 You know, they wait, let's say you buy something and you return it.

14:37 It's like, let's say you buy a bunch of T-shirts online, you got to wait a week

14:40 before the credit card payment gets reversed or with a ticket you buy it.

14:44 Maybe you don't want to go to the show anymore.

14:46 Now you have to list that on StubHub.

14:47 It's a lot of effort to receive that refund.

14:50 With stablecoins, everything is instantaneous, permissionless, and 24/7.

14:54 My favorite story about getting into crypto was just using Ethereum on the

14:58 weekend and

14:58 showing my dad that it takes a couple minutes to move money anywhere in the

15:01 world.

15:02 That was in like 2017.

15:03 And with stablecoins and with all the new positive regulation,

15:06 we now have new tools to create a completely new environment for creatives to

15:10 interact with

15:11 their biggest supporters.

15:12 We also don't even necessarily think it stops at creators.

15:14 You can imagine somebody who has medical debt that starts to go fund me.

15:17 Instead of now donating to pay off that medical debt, you can just bond to that

15:22 person

15:22 and they can use your interest to pay off that medical debt, right?

15:24 So this is just a completely new mechanic that begins with creators

15:28 because everything good usually begins with creators.

15:31 And we hope to just expand the idea of interest-bearing online connection

15:38 to lots of other spaces on the internet.

15:40 Why now?

15:41 Like, why is the world ready for this now?

15:43 I asked this because, you know, back in previous cycles of the crypto market,

15:48 there were a lot of hopes placed on being able to compensate creators for their

15:52 work.

15:52 There was a lot of interest in NFT royalties and things like that.

15:56 It didn't really pan out to the degree that people had thought.

15:59 What's changed between then and now and why is the world

16:03 you know, ready to receive this kind of new product?

16:07 I think a few reasons.

16:08 First, from a technical side, the tech is kind of ready, right?

16:12 Like, we have layer twos with like sub-penny transaction fees.

16:16 We have stablecoins.

16:17 We have really amazing SDKs and wallet infrastructure where people can come to

16:22 our site

16:22 and we can give them a wallet with them not even knowing that there's a wallet.

16:27 Like, they can just sign up with your email.

16:28 We can also sponsor their transaction.

16:30 So when you're using the bond website, for example, normally and you'll have

16:34 like

16:34 pay Ethereum gas to like do a transaction, you don't even know that there's an

16:37 Ethereum

16:38 transaction going on on the bond platform because it's all hidden behind the

16:41 scenes.

16:41 But that is because there have been many companies that have worked really hard

16:45 to build

16:46 really incredible infrastructure to enable such a seamless experience.

16:50 Because even like when you asked to describe what we're building,

16:53 we didn't even need to mention crypto, right?

16:55 It's not required.

16:56 And so if we're trying to get the mainstream onboarded, it's very important

16:59 that the experience just feels seamless.

17:01 That's from a technical side.

17:04 The other thing I'd say is that Patreon and Substack and these other

17:07 subscription platforms

17:08 have been around.

17:09 But other platforms that are like the Instagrams and the Twitters of the world

17:13 have started to incorporate subscriptions into these profiles.

17:16 So like you can subscribe to a Twitter profile or Instagram profile.

17:19 People just have like subscription fatigue, right?

17:22 I, there was like maybe 100 creators that I would love to support because I

17:26 read their posts.

17:27 I follow them.

17:28 But I don't think I'm going to pay them five bucks a month, right?

17:31 There are some creators that I see have like a quarter of a million followers.

17:35 And when you click in, only 250 paid them five bucks a month as subscribers.

17:39 That's a huge gap, right?

17:42 So what is a better mechanism for me to support these creators that I love?

17:46 It's cheaper, you know, it's easier and it's less of like a mental burden.

17:49 And so I think as everyone sort of warming up to this idea of subscribing to

17:53 people,

17:54 we think that this is a better way of doing that.

17:56 So you said subscribing to people, which, you know, just to push back a little

18:00 bit,

18:00 we're in this time when AI has made it so easy to generate content.

18:04 Some people might argue that the cost of content creation is crashing to zero.

18:09 What happens in that world?

18:11 What happens to the creator economy?

18:12 That brings me to my most controversial take.

18:15 Great.

18:15 I'll tell a quick story and then I'll go into the answer.

18:19 There's nothing like watching John Mayer play the guitar live.

18:22 It's one of the best music experiences I've had as a DJ.

18:25 I can play guitar, but not really.

18:27 And watching John play is something that is an indescribably valuable

18:31 experience

18:32 that, you know, I've had the privilege of hanging out with him

18:35 and watching him play a couple of times.

18:37 And every time it gives me so much value, like he's received almost no

18:40 compensation

18:41 outside of the ticket, you know, which is some money.

18:44 But realistically, he's given me way more value than the value of that ticket,

18:46 right?

18:47 And the merch.

18:47 And the merch that I don't own yet.

18:48 I saw him perform at Beth Elle Woods, which is like where the real woodstock

18:53 took place.

18:53 He played with the Grateful Dead.

18:54 It was fantastic.

18:55 Wow.

18:55 He's an incredible show.

18:56 Also talked to him about Bond a couple of weeks ago and he got it pretty

18:59 quickly.

19:00 My controversial take as it applies to sort of AI content is

19:03 people will find value in the human curation surrounding that content.

19:09 Because, you know, when things are just like prompt to content,

19:13 you can usually tell like eventually it will be relatively indistinguishable.

19:16 But the biggest variable in creativity is less the actual creative act and more

19:22 curation.

19:23 And it has been for a while.

19:24 So when I sit down to make a song, I'm curating all these different sounds

19:27 to create the final version of the song.

19:29 That's my skill set.

19:31 And that's what feels the most human to the listener.

19:33 And so I think in that sense, people will appreciate the human input.

19:37 It's just that the friction to execute your creative ideas has now gone to zero

19:41 ,

19:41 which brings me to my controversial take, which is that IP as it relates to

19:44 creativity,

19:45 I think is going to completely disappear.

19:48 I don't think that any of the laws are actually enforceable,

19:50 and any of the precedents are enforceable.

19:52 And if you look at the history of copyright, it's not very old.

19:55 Especially it applies to music.

19:56 Master recording rights didn't even exist up until the 70s.

20:00 So no one even owned the underlying recording,

20:02 except for the record labels.

20:03 There were no laws because the labels just owned everything.

20:05 They owned 100%.

20:07 And it was only until the 70s that musicians actually even received

20:10 any portion of income from their recordings.

20:12 They also controlled, you know, the labels control the physical distribution as

20:15 well.

20:15 And so copyright as a concept is kind of becoming antiquated by the existence

20:19 of AI.

20:20 And I actually think it holds us back a lot.

20:22 And so the contrary opinion to this is well, like,

20:24 how do you pay all the people that came up with the ideas first?

20:27 And my response to that is,

20:29 work human beings were kind of unlimited.

20:32 If somebody had an idea 200 years ago, they couldn't even record it.

20:37 What if they influenced all these generations of people that led

20:41 the first copyright holder to their idea?

20:43 They're not getting compensated along the way when copyright didn't exist.

20:46 Johann Sebastian Bach was one of the first musicians of all time

20:49 to have any sort of rights associated with his music.

20:52 His value lives on through his provenance,

20:54 through his reputation of being one of the best composers of all time.

20:58 And so my opinion on this is we just need to create a new value system for

21:02 creativity.

21:03 Copyright is just not it and cannot be in a world of rampant quality level AI

21:07 content.

21:08 That sounds like a very scary prospect, probably, for a lot of creators

21:11 who are used to relying on their IP and making their entire living off of it.

21:16 That's the question is, in a world where they won't be able to do that anymore,

21:18 which I think is inevitable, what do they have?

21:21 Well, they have the human relationship with the people that appreciate their

21:24 work.

21:24 And so we need to come up with an entirely new value system.

21:26 Otherwise, I actually think all of creativity is doomed.

21:30 And so you've got sort of the incumbents that are like,

21:32 we got to pass for our rights and for the Mickey Mouse IP or for this song IP

21:37 that's really big,

21:38 that somebody remakes.

21:39 And in reality, I think it's so egotistic to think

21:42 that we could ever own an idea in the first place.

21:44 This might not be true of biotech, just to juxtapose it for a second.

21:48 When there's a lot of research and friction that goes into an idea,

21:51 patents and stuff, I understand are necessary because without that,

21:54 people aren't even incentivized to innovate, right?

21:56 Because someone could just copy, cat it, and all of your work and money

22:00 and time that you spent on research is irrelevant.

22:03 And so people would be less incentivized to build really complicated things

22:07 if that type of IP law didn't exist.

22:09 But as it implies to creativity where the friction is really going to zero,

22:12 anywhere where friction is zero with the advent of AI,

22:15 I just believe copyright is a huge force against innovation in those spaces.

22:21 This reminds me of a quote from Thomas Jefferson,

22:24 associated with when he was kind of developing the patent system in the US.

22:28 He sort of walked through the logic of it saying,

22:30 if I light my candle to yours, you can take my fire without diminishing mine.

22:35 And he talks about this as like an analogy for the spread of ideas.

22:38 You know, other people can benefit from and use your ideas

22:41 without it hurting you as the creator.

22:43 But it sounds like we need an update on some of these systems

22:48 that we've held for a long time.

22:50 It also reminds me of, you know, I think Charles Dickens,

22:53 he did a famous tour in the US when he was the most popular writer of his time.

22:58 And I think he was horrified because in America,

23:00 everybody would just rip all of his works and they were publishing it,

23:04 left and right, not abiding by any copyright and he thought we were savages.

23:08 But maybe this is the way of the future.

23:10 Yeah, who knows?

23:11 We're going to know in the next five years, that's for sure.

23:13 It's getting really good.

23:14 My controversial take, unrelated, is I've worked in this industry for many

23:20 years now.

23:21 And I've seen that.

23:21 You have including at A6 and C6 and C6. Yes. And I think like now going to the

23:27 builder side

23:28 and like starting to build things, I think what I'm starting to think about is

23:32 I don't

23:33 necessarily think that every, we'll call it crypto product or product built on

23:39 crypto

23:40 needs to be a decentralized protocol with a token.

23:43 And because of how big that word is, everything just kind of gets lumped

23:49 together into that.

23:50 But I think what we're seeing, as I've said before, is the tech is so good that

23:55 you can just build great apps, great businesses that don't necessarily need to

24:00 be decentralized.

24:00 And that's okay.

24:02 Using these rails to create a great experience and net new financial products

24:06 or net new consumer

24:08 experiences. And we're actually seeing that happen, right?

24:10 And so I don't know if I can name names or not, but there are many successful

24:15 crypto companies

24:15 now that are, you know, I wouldn't necessarily call like a decentralized

24:19 protocol, but they're

24:20 using the tech in a way that's really amazing to just create new products in

24:24 the world.

24:25 And that's exciting to see.

24:27 And I hope that that is, you know, something that builders out there who are

24:31 like thinking

24:32 about, like, I want to build a new product.

24:34 They shouldn't be thinking about, oh, do I want to build a crypto product?

24:37 They should be thinking about, I want to build this great thing.

24:39 And crypto is like a tool and a means to get there, but it's not like on

24:44 building a whole

24:44 crypto product, right? Like, it's a layer on the stack.

24:46 Yeah, I think we're seeing this, you know, play out in stablecoins where people

24:51 talk

24:51 about stablecoins, but it's going to just sort of transition to this thing

24:55 where people are

24:55 talking about dollars. Like, it doesn't matter that it's a stablecoin.

24:58 I'm just talking about what it does at the end of the day, which is it

25:00 represents some

25:01 value for you in a reliable way.

25:02 Something around this that I was thinking about the other day is like, what's

25:06 the difference

25:06 between crypto and AI? And I feel like AI.

25:10 I feel like this is a setup for a joke.

25:11 No, it's not.

25:11 It's not like I was really thinking about it.

25:14 It's not, but I was really thinking about like, what's the difference for the

25:17 user?

25:17 And the difference is the user is going to feel the AI, right?

25:22 They're going to feel it in the experience, right?

25:24 As we know, we've seen thousands of these products and whether it's generating

25:27 art or

25:28 talking to charging BT or whatever, right?

25:30 Whereas crypto might actually be completely invisible, right?

25:34 And that's kind of cool.

25:35 I love that it's sort of this front end, back end distinction.

25:37 Yeah, exactly.

25:38 We talked a little bit about Justin and his musical career,

25:41 but I have to also say, Michael, you're a magician.

25:43 Yes.

25:44 How does that inform your work?

25:45 How does it make you think about the creator economy?

25:48 Well, a lot of different ways.

25:49 It's funny.

25:49 Magic and IP has a very crazy history because you can't copyright magic.

25:54 Like you can't like copyright or magic performance.

25:56 Like I could write down something and maybe copyright that,

25:59 but you can't copyright a magic performance.

26:01 And so magic history is littered with people ripping each other off, left and

26:05 right,

26:05 and remixing ideas.

26:07 Like, oh, I might see you perform one thing and take it

26:09 and do it over here and this and that and this.

26:11 It's funny.

26:11 One of my mentors in magic quite I respect immensely.

26:14 His name is Aussie Wind.

26:15 He's incredible.

26:15 Yeah, you haven't seen a show.

26:16 Oh, he's amazing.

26:17 You have the best.

26:18 You have to see him.

26:18 He actually posed this question to me one time,

26:21 which was like, you know, you can go to a magic store and pay $20

26:25 for like a trick deck of cards or whatever.

26:27 And, you know, just do the same trick as anybody else.

26:29 It's the same trick, right?

26:31 But what's the difference between like a good and bad magician, right?

26:34 And they came down to like, what else are we saying?

26:36 It's the person, right?

26:38 When Aussie Wind performs trick A and I perform trick A,

26:42 him performing is going to be like significantly better.

26:46 Like a thousand times better because he's just amazing, right?

26:48 And so it's funny because in the world of magic,

26:51 people kind of gave up.

26:52 They're like, we can't even copyright this stuff.

26:54 Like it's people are just going to get ripped off, left and right.

26:57 And so it forces the performers to be even more unique,

27:00 to like differentiate themselves.

27:02 Because otherwise you're just the cookie putter of like,

27:04 anyone else that can go to a magic store.

27:05 So it's almost like sort of the status quo for the magic world

27:10 is kind of what Justin was saying.

27:12 Like that this is where all art is headed, right?

27:16 That like, you're not going to have this defensibility

27:18 around your IP, your product, your ideas.

27:21 Right.

27:21 And it's about the human aspect, the human element

27:24 that you bring to it that people are going to connect with.

27:27 What's that amazing quote?

27:28 Anything, any sufficiently advanced technologies,

27:30 indistinguishable from magic, right?

27:31 Yes, Arthur C. Clark.

27:32 Yeah, amazing quote.

27:33 It's true, like, magicians are always like two to three steps

27:36 ahead tech-wise from like the rest of the world.

27:39 And I'm not going to explain what that is on a podcast,

27:42 because they don't be really feeling secret.

27:43 It's about like, I'll just say that there are like tech things

27:46 in magic that I was playing with over 10 years ago

27:50 in high school that now are becoming consumer products

27:53 that we have in our pocket.

27:54 Really?

27:55 And I can't use them as tricks anymore.

27:56 A hundred percent.

27:57 Yeah.

27:57 Can you give any examples?

27:58 Like, this sounds kind of crazy.

28:00 OK, the new meta glasses.

28:01 Yeah.

28:02 Right.

28:02 You have this on your wrist, right?

28:04 And you can type by drawing with your hands, right?

28:08 Right.

28:09 Magicians were playing with that.

28:11 Not not the exact tech, but like--

28:13 Conceptually.

28:14 Conceptually things dancing around that using technology,

28:16 like, you know, 10 years ago.

28:19 Oh, that's fascinating.

28:20 Yeah, which is really fun.

28:21 Inspirations for you guys.

28:23 Who do you look up to?

28:24 Who do you admire?

28:25 Who personally inspires your own creative pursuits?

28:28 I already mentioned John Mayer from a creativity standpoint,

28:31 and I would say one of my friends, who I also look up to,

28:33 Zed, who's also always been very tech-forward.

28:36 Fantastic DJ, mega-hit maker.

28:39 On the sort of tech side, I would say,

28:41 I think Brian Chesky is just a really great human being,

28:45 and has done some pretty amazing things

28:47 in the face of a lot of challenges.

28:48 And to see how Airbnb just revolutionized

28:51 in so many things, right?

28:53 And changed our perspective on how the world works.

28:55 I can only hope for us to sort of do that from a crypto lens.

28:59 Hmm.

29:00 I'll bring it back to magic.

29:01 I'll give three magicians that anyone watching

29:03 should, like, totally look up and watch their stuff,

29:06 because they've inspired me.

29:07 And I'll choose ones that are alive today,

29:08 so that, you know, you can all check it out.

29:10 So, obviously, Aussie went, like, for sure 100%,

29:12 the best Doug McKenzie and David Blaine.

29:16 And I love them all for very different reasons.

29:19 Doug, specifically, is sort of, like, the tech-forward magician.

29:22 And so he's, like, the most advanced on that front.

29:25 And David Blaine, he's just incredibly inspiring,

29:27 because he just pushes himself so hard.

29:31 And, like, you watch him perform, and you're, like,

29:33 listen, if he could, you know, stab a stake through his hand,

29:37 like, I can definitely, like, do this other thing.

29:39 I remember him trying to hold his breath under water

29:41 for, like, however many minutes, that's the same.

29:42 Nine, yeah, exactly.

29:43 Nine, ten minutes.

29:44 Exactly, exactly.

29:45 You guys have time for a lightning round?

29:46 Let's do it.

29:47 Sure.

29:48 What is the worst piece of advice

29:49 that you've ever gotten as a founder?

29:52 This is a very specific take,

29:53 but just hire smart people.

29:55 They'll figure it out, I think, is wrong.

29:57 Especially in any blockchain adjacent

30:00 or blockchain-specific industry,

30:02 you must use the product to have

30:04 the right cultural perspective.

30:06 And I think that just hiring a great engineer

30:08 and hoping to train them in the ways of crypto,

30:10 unless they're truly passionate about crypto, it doesn't work.

30:12 So I would say that's, like, the worst advice I've gotten.

30:14 I was going to say, that's exactly what I was going to say.

30:16 That was going to steal hands.

30:17 Oh, shit.

30:17 So, yeah, only one of that.

30:19 No need to name names.

30:20 What is your biggest productivity hack?

30:22 Voice notes.

30:23 Like, voice note to AI summary.

30:25 So, like, I use meeting notes on Zoom.

30:27 I don't always look at them, but, like, if I ever have an idea,

30:30 now I know I can just, instead of recording it, transcribing it,

30:33 and then leaving it in its current form,

30:35 I can have AI take the idea, refine it,

30:38 and now it's there in my notes.

30:40 And I think that's been really helpful

30:43 for me recalling thoughts and things that I,

30:47 you know, we're just thinking about all this stuff all day long.

30:49 And then there's a lot of things we think about.

30:50 And so being able to distill all of that,

30:52 I think with some combination of voice,

30:54 an AI is great for me. I use, like, a lot of, like,

30:58 AI generated voice for, like, reading blogs and stuff.

31:01 And so I have this pipeline where I have, like, a Chrome extension

31:04 with Speechify, and it hooks into my email.

31:06 So when I'm reading emails, I can just have it, like, be read to me.

31:09 And if I like things, I can, like, another Chrome extension,

31:12 which, like, takes a snippet of, like, a quote or a concept that I really like,

31:16 and then puts it right into Obsidian,

31:18 which is, like, the other tool that I know a lot,

31:20 every day, six, since it uses it.

31:21 Yes.

31:21 I mean, a lot of people look at you, so it's like this whole flow.

31:24 One of my messages.

31:25 I'm, like, Speechify to, you know, Obsidian.

31:28 Obsidian's, like, note-taking app, basically.

31:30 I just use Apple Notes.

31:32 Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

31:33 Obsidian's, like, the greatest note-taking app of all time.

31:36 I tried using Obsidian.

31:37 I also reverted back out.

31:38 Just so used to it, yeah.

31:39 Just going with the basics.

31:41 I've been asking people for a book recommendation.

31:43 Given your work, feel free to recommend a song too,

31:45 or whatever kind of art you think people should admire.

31:49 I think maybe the book that I've read recently that, like,

31:54 I stopped and took so many notes.

31:57 I'll give you two books again.

31:58 Yeah.

31:58 I took so many notes, and, like, it really,

32:00 maybe think about a lot of things.

32:01 A lot of things was the Machiavellians.

32:03 Oh, yeah.

32:03 That one.

32:05 And then, as it relates to, like, tech and crypto,

32:08 and, like, how do you wrap your head around this whole thing of Bitcoin,

32:12 and crypto, and stablecoins, and dollars, and the Fed,

32:15 and money printing, and, like, how do you wrap that all?

32:17 Lynn Alden's book, I think it's called Broken Money.

32:21 Yeah, Broken Money.

32:22 Those are two really good books.

32:23 I've yet to read, and definitely should.

32:26 Fantastic books.

32:27 One on economics, one on politics.

32:28 Yeah.

32:28 I've read the Machiavellians.

32:30 This is a beloved book within A16Z.

32:33 Mark Andreessen talks about it all the time.

32:34 Yeah, yeah.

32:35 That's where I got it from, though.

32:36 Yeah.

32:36 It says a lot about politics.

32:38 If you want to understand it, you can...

32:39 Definitely.

32:40 Learn a lot from it.

32:41 My book was a gift from my brother, actually, on my birthday.

32:45 The courage to be disliked.

32:47 It's fantastic.

32:48 And at a time in my life, where a lot of people on the internet

32:52 disliked me, it was a very, very great read,

32:54 and changed my perspective on a lot of things.

32:56 So that's up there for me on books.

32:58 Who's the same word about that?

33:00 I DJed at the Presidential Inauguration,

33:02 and a lot of people hate Trump.

33:03 That was this January.

33:04 Dead Mouse, another DJ, said something negative,

33:07 and then a bunch of other people piled on.

33:09 And I actually worked with racial Horowitz

33:11 on my very politically correct response

33:13 on what it means to be proud to be an American.

33:14 And I would have DJed for a camel.

33:16 I would have DJed for any president if they ask,

33:18 because I'm a proud American.

33:19 I love the freedoms we have in this country.

33:21 And that says nothing about my political beliefs

33:23 about immigration, just because I'm DJing in inauguration.

33:26 It doesn't mean you can make all these assumptions

33:27 about my beliefs on other things.

33:29 Also, pro-crypto president is probably good for my shareholders

33:32 and our work, but it's beyond that.

33:35 And so I read the book around that time,

33:36 and it was very helpful to be.

33:37 That's a good pick for artists who are, you know,

33:39 in today's day and age, when you're trying to be loved

33:42 by everybody and gain the biggest following possible.

33:45 The best time to read that book, like you should buy it

33:48 and put it on your shelf, but don't read it

33:50 until you're feeling like really down.

33:52 Because that's what it's gonna happen most in back.

33:54 Yeah, probably.

33:54 If you're happy and you're like, flying high,

33:56 you're like, I'm really glad.

33:57 It won't really stir.

33:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

33:59 That's actually good.

34:00 That's actually a good tip.

34:01 On the music front, you know, it's a cliche answer,

34:04 but, you know, a lot of people spend a lot of time listening

34:07 to individual songs.

34:08 And I think that the album is a lost art, right?

34:11 When you can listen to something undistracted

34:13 for 45 minutes to an hour and 15 minutes

34:16 and really understand the story that an artist is trying to tell,

34:18 I highly recommend people listen to albums.

34:20 And then it's relatively a cliche answer,

34:23 but I think that the latest Rufus Dusseau album

34:25 is one of their best.

34:26 Their previous albums are also incredible.

34:28 I just really, really love the new one.

34:29 There's a couple songs on there

34:30 that I think push a lot of boundaries, sonically.

34:34 And it's definitely a two-listen.

34:36 Amazing.

34:37 Well, I have to plug this actually.

34:38 Our podcast is using your music, Justin.

34:41 Thank you for supplying it to us.

34:42 A track called Shine That You Created.

34:44 A track that never came out that now is in good hands.

34:46 And now we'll be listening to you by anybody

34:48 who tunes into A16Z Crypto's Media.

34:51 We love it.

34:51 Thank you for that.

34:52 And I recommend that to anybody.

34:54 Nice.

34:54 Final question in the light year round,

34:56 what is the smallest hill that you will die on?

34:59 I have a good one.

35:00 Yeah.

35:00 No outside clothes on Inside Furniture.

35:03 Fantastic.

35:04 You and my wife would get along very well.

35:05 That's, okay, that's a really good one.

35:07 I'll do one for Tech then.

35:09 I, to this day, still believe that

35:12 an NFT, or specifically like ERC721 or 1155,

35:16 is one of the coolest technological innovations

35:19 for representing digital objects on the internet.

35:21 And they are going to be everywhere.

35:23 So regardless of what people say in the media

35:25 what the headlines are, they are not dead.

35:27 What are people getting wrong about it?

35:28 They make all these assumptions,

35:30 I think, on the speculative front.

35:31 They think of it like the internet was a passing fad

35:34 that no one was going to use,

35:35 but yet it's an information superhighway

35:37 that's really valuable to everyone.

35:38 I think NFTs will sort of follow that arc

35:40 that the internet did,

35:42 where digital ownership is really meaningful.

35:44 The Instagram verified badge actually meant a lot for a while

35:47 and it's a combination of signal and digital identity.

35:50 And NFTs still do that today.

35:52 There were just a lot of projects

35:53 that maybe abuse some of the most popular narratives

35:57 to make a lot of money.

35:58 And I think those narratives remain true

36:00 that digital ownership is one of the most important things

36:03 to think about in the future.

36:05 And especially as it applies to the previous conversation

36:08 we had about AI and friction going to zero,

36:10 having representations of who originated something

36:13 of provenance, of a transparent ledger

36:16 of how that digital object has moved,

36:19 I think is just such an inevitability,

36:20 whether that's on the identity level

36:22 or the artistic level,

36:23 they're going to be everywhere.

36:24 It's just a matter of time.

36:25 I think it was Eddie Lazar said this at my time of day 16z

36:28 and I love this, it was great.

36:29 Yeah, he adds in our CTO, he's great.

36:31 Yeah, I forgot what the topic was,

36:32 but it was really like NFTs and ownership.

36:34 And he goes, you know, a side effect

36:38 of true ownership is ease of transferability.

36:42 And when you have some of this easily transferable,

36:45 you're going to get a lot of people transferring it

36:47 and trading, right?

36:48 But that's not the core thing, that's a side effect, right?

36:50 The core is true ownership.

36:52 And I like that, I like that frame.

36:54 It's like training.

36:55 True ownership, that's something we can all get behind.

36:56 Yes.

36:57 Michael, Justin, thank you so much for being here

36:59 and for taking the time out to chat.

37:00 Amazing.

37:01 Thanks for having us.

37:01 This is great.

37:02 Thank you.

37:03 Q shine.

37:04 Yeah, that's right.

37:08 [MUSIC PLAYING]

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